ryyannon Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 As some of you may know, the ongoing soap-opera concerning my quest for the WM 45mm Pam with a vintage 2533 dial ended last week with the acquisition of what I figured was going to be a mediocre compromise: a mass-produced 45mm model with a Moljina movement. To my astonishment and great pleasure, I must say that it leaves little to be desired in terms of aesthetics and quality (I've got a gen WM California to compare it to). The only real problem is that the lugs are not moveable - you can't take them out to change the strap. These watches invariably come with the (for me) weird-looking double-screw straps. The guy I bought the watch from (it's available from Josh, by the way) apparently changed the strap for a kind of non-descript matte tan number which I'd like to replace with something really nice - to set off that lovely 2533 dial. I've PM'd him to ask how he did it (no visible signs of strap mutilation) but in the meantime, I thought I'd present the issue before our august and knowledgeable Panerai connoisseurs..... I figure that some of you out there might have had the same fixed-lug problem, and I'd really like to know how you got around it (I know you all well enough to know that most of you can't resist changing straps, even with a fixed lug case). The only solution that occurs to me is to cut through the back of the new strap and then glue it back once it's wrapped around the lug. I have to admit that this is an absolutely horrible thing to do to a premium quality strap. Other than sending the whole watch to a strap-maker for a custom fit, is there any other way around this that anyone has discovered? Sleepless (once again) in Paris.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris5264 Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 I actually asked greg stevens to custom make a one piece strap for this same watch. The idea was to make it thin so it could pass under the lugs and across the back of the case. This really didn't work because the lugs are so flat it just looked strange. So, I cut the strap in two and used the large screws that came with the old strap. Not great because the strap now is just too thin but not too bad either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 chris, those screw heads do a wonderful job reflecting your image as you photograph them....reminds me of a scene from 'Blade Runner'. Unfortunately, all the Cowbell in the world could never induce me to accept the double-screw solution. Like the name itself, it strikes me as a bit obscene. Now I know that taste is a subjective thing, and I'm in no way insinuating that yours is off.... even as I thank you for your input. Since you've got one of these fixed-lug cases, haven't you ever wondered how those lugs are actually fixed? Do you imagine that someone took the time to weld the two prongs in? (improbable). Could it be Superglue? Maybe there's a secret system of screws and levers inside the case....? Electro-magnets.....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoTone Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 Ryy: I can see this in my minds eye... Unfortunately it's bloodshot and swollen from the weekend... I bet you could send the Watch to Aaron and have him actually make the strap around the lugs. Choose your leather and stitching colour, then let the master perform his artistry... Talk about a custom job TT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highflyingclive Posted October 3, 2006 Report Share Posted October 3, 2006 I have seen straps for fixed lug watches on strap-sites... they have a glue-down tab. But I can't remember where, so you'll have to search. Sorry. But they do exist. Or ask Banda to make one for you. Just add the glue of your choice :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris5264 Posted October 3, 2006 Report Share Posted October 3, 2006 actually, I agree. I'm not into the double screw thing myself (LOL, the one time my wife stops to read my post and it happened to be this one) but I haven't had any other ideas on how to work this out. Greg actually said if I sent him the watch he would put one that was actually stitched on. As far as I can tell this may be the only decent solution. I wonder if you could cut the lugs right right at 26mm and drill very small holes, one each side that would accept a typical spring bar? of course one slip and its all over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2006 Veeerrrry small holes.... Practically nano-technology Micro-surgery Must remember to Google for 'glue-down tabs'..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted October 3, 2006 Report Share Posted October 3, 2006 you can have a strap sewn to the lug. I dont remember who it was, but someone here offers that service, or at least knows of someone who does! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leitztozeiss Posted October 3, 2006 Report Share Posted October 3, 2006 Madasboot had a custom open-ended strap made by Watchinger (I think it was). Just search his posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2006 My thanks to everyone who suggested fixes for this problem; in the meantime, great news from Frankie in Germany concerning the fixed lug issue: "there is a sprinbar on the lugs.put the strap on the lug a little bit down and you can see the springbar-now you can change the strap." (Picture a row of madly laughing smilies here...) I feel as if the Tooth Fairy left a kilo of uncut Medellan Puro under my pillow! If this is from the same vintage 45mm series (2533, California and Base) being offered by Josh for $188.00 each, it is the discovery of the year: a totally beautiful watch and a (hopefully) dependable Moljina movement. Now if I can only resolve the lack-of-a display back problem.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted October 3, 2006 Report Share Posted October 3, 2006 A springbar in the fixed lug vintage. I will be very curious since many have been sold to date and no one has mentioned it. I don't own one but was wondering if the lugs could be moved if you removed the caseback. Otherwise, slit the strap and apply velcro. Actually, I am not so sure I am kidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolli Posted October 3, 2006 Report Share Posted October 3, 2006 hi ryyannon, buy a 249 ( domed plexi ) or 232 ( sapphire ) and change the dial with your vintage dial. then you can change the straps !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! rolli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2006 A springbar in the fixed lug vintage. I will be very curious since many have been sold to date and no one has mentioned it. I don't own one but was wondering if the lugs could be moved if you removed the caseback. Otherwise, slit the strap and apply velcro. Actually, I am not so sure I am kidding. I'm curious about getting to the bottom of this as well: never heard of such an animal before either. The strap is a good fit around the lugs, but in running an opened paper clip along one of them, I definitely felt something in there that normally shouldn't be - like a springbar.... Maybe both Frankie and I are just hallucinating, but I have to say that there's a decent replacement strap on this watch that normally doesn't come with a fixed lug version, and no way of getting it on there without a springbar - unless it was an 'inside' (the case) job..... More later when I find out where it was originally purchased..... UPDATE: Contacted by the original owner who informed me that the watch came from Andrew rather than Josh. Checked Andrew's site and discovered a confusing series of vintages (2533, California and Base) either in an unspecified size or in 47mm. No less than two versions of each - which leads me to suspect that the Moljot movement is actually in a 45mm case rather than a 47 as specified. It certainly sits on my wrist like a 45mm.... http://www.trustytime.com/index.php?main_p...amp;cPath=37_48 I guess the next step would be to contact Andrew, but it's possible that even he is unaware of the presence of a springbar (or even a 45mm 2533 model for that matter). Logically, this would mean that Josh's 45mm vintages are of the same (springbar) type - at $10.00 less than Andrew's. Thought the soap opera was over: it looks like there are still a few more installments to come..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolli Posted October 3, 2006 Report Share Posted October 3, 2006 dear ryyannon, the vintage models are 47mm rolli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2006 dear ryyannon, the vintage models are 47mm rolli rolli, Not necessarily. Check out the link to Andrew http://www.trustytime.com/index.php?main_p...amp;cPath=37_48 as well as Josh's site http://perfect-clones.com/panerai-radiomir-45mm-c-35_50.html and you'll find the 45mm vintage series... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris5264 Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 I actually had an idea but no guts to follow up on it. Look at the top lug, I've made two marks. What if I cut the lug in half leaving a small gap (about 2mm) that I could slide a strap in? There would be enough of the lug on the other side to hold it in. The only bad thing is that I could never use a stiff strap, all would generally have to have some play in them. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 I've actually thought about the same thing...... but for sure you'd need a veeery flexible strop to be able to slide it in to such a small opening.... The strap it came with is acceptable until I find the energy and motivation to change it - at which point I'll certainly discover whether there really is a springbar on the lugs or not. At the worst, and using a surgical scalpel or somesuch, I believe that one could slice open the back of certain straps - sort of composite (or layered) models rather than those made of a single thick piece of leather - and then carefully glue the opened end back in place once you've fitted it to the lug. These fixed lugs are a total [censored] - someone should attempt to discover how they were inseted in the first place - and what keeps them in place. Maybe a sharp tug with a pliers would release the prongs - maybe they're held in place from within the case.....maybe it all a magical illusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finepics Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 A couple of the 3646's I had used a spring bar in the middle of the two bent lugs. What a pain for me as the bar should be solid and welded to the case. The strap would then be stitched to the case as my vintage project is. Even with the spring bar the strap would still be very difficult to change as the bar is quite short and tucked up way inside the strap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris5264 Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 I should know myself by now. The whole point (for me) with reps is to take some chances. So, I got home from work and started to cut. As you can see, I made a small slightly slanted (to make the strap slide in better) cuts offset on both lugs. It turns out this worked very well. The strap (a 24mm) went right on no problem and has no chance of slipping off. Absolutely no way to tell this wasn't stitched right to the case. The only problem is that I can't really make strap changing a day to day thing. The lug will bend a little and actually move around just a little so this strap will be on a while. However, decent improvement over old strap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 That's a clever solution, Chris - particularly your offsetting the cut to one side (which would have never occured to me) .... and I'm glad it worked out. The watch already looks much better with the new strap. I'm curious to know why you chose a 24mm over a 26mm - even a 45mm case takes a 26mm strap - or am I mistaken about this? @Finepics: beautiful strap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris5264 Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 That's a clever solution, Chris - particularly your offsetting the cut to one side (which would have never occured to me) .... and I'm glad it worked out. The watch already looks much better with the new strap. I'm curious to know why you chose a 24mm over a 26mm - even a 45mm case takes a 26mm strap - or am I mistaken about this? @Finepics: beautiful strap! Thanks, I guess I was just conservative to start. I'm hoping that this will allow me to at least change straps once in a while. I'll see how much trouble it is to toss on a 26, pics to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finepics Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Only real problem with this way is that if you catch the watch on a handle os something you risk bending the bar. The reason that Panerai went over to the fixed lug type 6152 case is because the Divers complained about the bars bending without them being cut. @Ryannon - thanks for the compliment - the strap is absolutley beautiful and is now beginning to break in. Should have some new pics of the completed project coming soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Hot news for the two or three or people who are actually interested in the question: This afternoon, seated in the sun on the terrace of a local café and having nothing better to do with my pointless existence, I mucked around with an appropriate tool (a wooden matchstick) within the strap-end and one of the fixed lugs of my lovely 2533, and sure enough, out popped an (approximately) 1.5mm springbar. Although getting it back together again will probably take hours, it's interesting to note that Andrew's (and perhaps Josh's, if he has the same supplier) 45mm vintage cases are - probably even unbeknowngst to both gentlemen - equipped with springbars - meaning that straps can be changed easily and ad infinitum if one so desires. The strap which the watch came with is a 24mm replacement for the awful-looking riveted original equipment. At 26mm, it probably would not even be necessary to fit the springbar - there's enough horizontal prolongation on both sides of the prongs to ensure a tight fit. Since I don't do digital photos, I'm including a schematic diagram of the situation for those who are English disadvantaged. Even though it's not as good as a picture, it might be worth all the words I've used trying to clearly describe the situation. (Not to scale): Let the slanted vertical lines represent each side of the lugs; the horizonal line the (horizontal) prolongation of each (approximately 0.4mm), and the dotted lines the free space found between (approximately 2mm). Clear as a bell? Here we go: /-- ------------------ --/ Of course, the representation of the second lug (right-hand side) is backwards - it should be slanting in the other direction) but that's the best I can do with my vastly simplified iMac keyboard which dates from 1903. But I'm sure most of you got it anyway..... All that remains is to inform Trusty and Josh about this hidden and most exciting feature of the vintages they're both selling, except that I rather doubt that they really care very much. Anyone contemplating the purchase of one of these 45mm watches might care a lot, which is why I've written what now amounts to a small book describing my experiences with the fixed-lug issue. If I do get in touch with them (only Andrew, since Josh has already said 'niet') I'm going to enquire about the possibilities of a display back: who knows, maybe instead of the Moljot movements they think is in there, we'll discover that these watches actually come with Corteberts..... With a dispaly back and the Russian movement - not the ugliest in the world for sure - this 3-watch series (2533, California & Base) will be irresistable must-haves for anyone interested in having a pretty credible vintage but not possessing the capital and the patience to deal with WM - who seems pretty busy turning out Rolex vintages for muchos $$$$$$ at the moment anyway. If anyone else reading this has info concerning fitting a display back to the 45mm Radiomir case (apparently not the 'standard' Radiomir cases, since there's about 1mm difference in the thickness according to the dealer's specs) please post about it here. It would be wonderful to discover that a display back solution exists, making these vintage Paneraii very satisfying replicas indeed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris5264 Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Interesting, However, I'm having a difficult time understanding where exactly the spring bar is. Too bad I didn't wait the weekend before I took the dremel to mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Chris, Please refer to my easy-to-understand diagram! :-) Anyway, it's clear that your model is a true fixed lug case....don't know the source, but with those that Andrew is selling (at least the one I have) the springbar is hidden by the strap - like on any 'normal' watch. The lugs only appear fixed because we've all become used to the fact that they were previously (my supposition). Incidentally, by wrapping the springbar with a length of Scotchtape, I increased the circumferance to the point where it was quite easy fitting it back into the tiny holes at the end of each L-shaped arm of the lugs. I strongly recommend anyone interested in one or more of the traditional Pam vintage series to look into Andrew's selection - they're inexpensive, very well made and readily accessible. The money you save with one of these can be reinvested in knockout straps, vintage-ized hands & lume and whatever else you feel is necessary. As for me, I'm delighted to have found a 2533 which is virtually indistinguishable from the WM version I was looking for - for about one-fifth of the price! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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