All About ETA

[RobbieG]

Hi All,

For many this may be redundant, but I see a lot of confusion surrounding ETA and movements in general coming from many members. I thought I would summarize both my knowledge and some of my own opinions and thoughts in one thread for folks who want or need the information. Here we go...

For the most part the word 'Swiss' when used to describe the highest quality movement which can be had in a replica watch simply means that the watch is fitted with a movement manufactured by the Swiss manufacturing company ETA (pronounced as the letters themselves in succession: E-T-A, or sounded out like Eh-tah, which is especially common for European industry folks. Either is acceptable). In the case of replicas,

[RWG Technical]

Amazing post, just taking a quick tea break from bathroom reno's, not enough time to digest it all. I'll read it later in detail and comment. Thanks for taking the time to put this together, it looks very interesting.

RG

[gianton]

One of the best posts I have read so far relating to replica watches. Thanks a lot for taking the time and write it!

[LordRasta]

Excellent post.

[nasosn]

Stunning, enjoyable and extremely detailed article Congrats RobbieG

[Pix]

Thx for the write up, that was really interesting

The Sellita movements we saw in our reps some time ago seem to have faded... Or have we just forgotten this topic ? I'd be curious on what's their place in our little World today, as I understood they are a very viable replacement to the ETA movements... Well, it seems that the Asian clones (or call it how you want) too

One thing we can't avoid and which stays a real problem : these clones can be as good as they want (virtually same as the "Swiss" ETAs), I can't swallow to pay the same price for them. I'm ready and eaven wish to see them in our reps more and more, but as a tool to keep the rep prices reasonable, not as a source of easy money for the manufactuers...or dealers.

There's something which is beyond my understanding : why would Breitling worry so much about the absence of ebauches ? Even if their 2824 or 2835 purchasing price is doubled, it still won't represent more than 10% in the price of many of their watches. Isn't there a gap in the other 90% to help absorbing the movement price increase ? Like saving money on the boxes ?

[b16a2]

Nice post! In years to come, we could even see the rise of the chinese movements making into genuines, I feel the balance is beginning to shift from quality issues to marketing issues that are preventing such a shift at the moment....?

[porschespeedster]

nice article, thanks.

[Stephane]

The industry is right around the corner of no longer needing Swiss movement credibility period. The question really is whether they will continue to use the word Swiss as a crutch and/or as a reason to justify higher prices.

Fantastic post!

After a year and a half on RWG I only can say that almost none of the watches I owned or still own really "failed" but two.

And that is a rep chrono modded with a "genuine" ETA 7750 Valjoux and a genuine 7 years old 16600 (hosting a Rolex mvt thus) having weird hands behaviour when setting the time.

I'm not saying that chinese movements are better, simply thinking that we pay high prices for the "swiss" signature indeed.

After all, with the production power of China, who knows if China is not going to achieve in movements what Japan did with cars, hi-fi, tv and so on, a true quality label

[jdavis]

Well done Robbie G! Your article is both interesting and informative and brings issues to light that we all have suspected for some time.

It should be interesting to read The Zigmeister's take on this subject from a watchmaker's perspective.

[iceberg1459]

Very informative and interesting read

After all, with the production power of China, who knows if China is not going to achieve in movements what Japan did with cars, hi-fi, tv and so on, a true quality label

no way, they do their purpose but nowhere near to mention as quality product

[freddy333]

So how could a high quality watch be made at the wholesale level for less than the cost of just the movement in the watch for everyone else in the world? To me it just doesn’t make sense. Breitling is paying full retail price to stock pile 2824’s from around the globe so they can continue to make the Steelfish and others at a level price, but they can’t buy all they want because instead we are getting them in complete watches after two or more levels of distribution for $200 dollars? The bottom line for me is that if I truly believe that the Chinese are in an industrial revolution and producing these world class ‘super reps’ as they are called with the most exacting detail, am I really supposed to believe that they considered a crude die stamp with the ETA logo and another with a four digit number on it and decided NOT to do it? In sum, if they are capable of 1:1 replication to deliver products like the GMT II-c and the SFSO and the Big Bang, I just have to believe that with the movement manufacture prowess demonstrated with the advent of the A7750, all the so called ETA 2824’s and 2836’s at this point are also replica movements. The bottom line is that even if they aren’t and I am totally wrong, they will be soon. Don’t get me wrong, I believe that these are near perfect copies, just like everything else these days and very high quality movements, but the numbers just don’t add up at this point for me to believe they are genuine anymore. After all, these are replicas and we have to believe that if they can replicate a complicated internal bezel mechanism they can replicate an ETA die stamp. In short, they are just too talented NOT to do it. My accusations are actually compliments. I think when the Swatch ‘freeze’ is complete they are just going to stop die stamping the base plates and say it is a new movement, but on careful comparison you will find that it is the exact same movement. Marketing wise they will say that it is a new generic ‘Swiss’ movement or something and then they will not be under pressure to lower prices.

Excellent article with a number of good points. I will add that those of us who work on our own watches should be able to tell the difference between a genuine ETA & its Asian-made analog based on the parts & assembly quality (there is a difference). But the average rep buyer is definitely going to get suckered here since most people are either unable to open their watch case or do not have any way to authenticate what they see if they can. In the case of the Asian 7750, I have seen at least 3 different versions of this Chinese-made ETA clone in Daytona reps over the past 3 or 4 years. 1 is built like a battleship (similar in quality to the ETA), 1 is reasonable quality & 1 is constructed out of relatively light gauge parts & poorly machined. I think Ziggy noted similar differences in 1 of his 7750 reviews.

The other problem many rep buyers will experience is the usual misleading information coming from many rep sellers. With a history of inaccurate statements like '1:1', 'perfect', 'this is a picture of the exact watch you will receive', 'freshly serviced by our own watchmaker', 'waterproofed', etc., you have to assume that future options like 'genuine ETA' may also be suspect. On the other hand, considering the high quality/accuracy of some of the newest designs coming out of Asia (select Vietnamese-made cases & the GMTIIC being prime examples), maybe we are seeing a sea-change in the quality of Asian-made reps. Could it be that some of these factories are following the Japanese formula from the 70s that produced some of the world's best watches, cars, motorcycles & electronics? Of course, only time will tell. But things may not be as dark as they may seem.

[jmt]

Absolutely amazing post! Really full of great info, although I think I may have to read it 3 more times to fully digest. Thanks SO MUCH for pulling it together!

[fishgodeep]

Probably pne of the best posts I have ever read on this forum - it's makes complete sense given the numbers involved and the improvements in quality and reliability that have been seen with both the A7750 and the clone high beat "Panerai" 6497-2 that appeared recently.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom

FGD

[Sir-Lancelot]

What a great read. Thank you.

I agree with the others, I will have to seriously read that sucker again and again. Lots of good stuff in there.

[robertk]

Great post.You've given us a real education.

Thank You!

[DemonSlayer]

Agreed with all the comments above, awesome post. Thanks for writing it up!

[RobbieG]

You know guys, there is also something else that needs consideration and that is that while one time ETA may have manufactured some movements or movement parts in China that they are no longer doing it BECAUSE of the replica "problem". Even if they are, they have identified the counterfeiters and they are not selling to them. I mean how hard can it be to figure out who your customer is? Look, you all know by now at least in part from my pictorials that I am for one a serious genuine watch collector with a sizable stable and as such I have quite a few connections to that world in some fairly high places. I can tell you that the gloves are off now in terms of this war. Genuine watch companies are really, really [censored] off at what China is doing (or not doing to stop it..) with replicas. Some of the incidents of these idiots posting rep pictures on TZ has brought down a shitstorm of biblical proportions for the rep industy. I believe we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg and there is going to be much more to come. These things have gotten too good and now it is being continually rubbed in their faces.

We need to consider that maybe ETA got so much heat from the industry that they were 'asked' (read...told) to "do something" about their operations in China to try and give rep companies less of an advantage. Don't you think that the industry has noticed as a whole what is in these things? As they sit in their boardrooms examining the latest amazing rep of their brand out of GZ, they open the caseback and what do they find? ETA. And don't you think calls are made to ETA to try and find out why it is that ETA is selling movements to these evil counterfeiters? Did you ever ask yourself, if in fact you believe the ETA's in reps are real, how it is that a rep factory manages to get ETA to sell them the movements? Is it like, Hi I'm a counterfeiter and I can't give you my real name but I need you to ship 10,000 2824's to my PO Box in GZ, which incidentally is known as the counterfeit capital of the world. Come on. So if you believe ETA is selling to them knowingly, don't you think the 'industry' would PI their operations over there to try and bust them out? How about Omega from within their own group? They have condoned ETA selling rep movements to counterfeiters which directly affects their own brand? I'm telling you guys, there is just NO WAY ETA is selling to rep factories that kind of quantity and getting away with it - whether they ultimately know who the buyer is or not. If nothing else, it would have been exposed a LONG time ago by some brand outside of Swatch. Certainly Rolex with their vast legal and deep pockets would have owned Swatch by now because of it. I'm telling you guys - The ETA's in these reps are most probably fake. With all that has transpired they just have to be at this point I'm sorry to say. But like I said, they are fantastic movements and they fit genuine parts so who cares...

Edited June 8, 2008 by RobbieG

[ChipWrecked]

Great post - which clarified a lot of my questions about current rep pricing vs. retail ETA movements. This post should be pinned.

Thanks.

[alligoat]

Yesterday I was discussing this with rodwc in another post. He was really concerned about being deceived by the rep sellers and not receiving a real ETA in his rep. But I have to admit, this line between genuine ETA and clone has been getting fuzzier for the last year or so. It only makes sense to me that we are going to see more and more of these clone movements in our reps. Heck, the Chinese have been copying the Miyota for even longer!

[yim156]

Wow, What a great topic !! It took me more than hour to finish this first page.

To RobbieG : Does ETA really have factory assembling movements and making parts in China?

I do not know how hard that the Rep maker process to get ETA movement. But I am sure that if they really want to, they could.

2 years ago, I used to talk with one person about replica items. He told me that everything that made in China, we can get it less than half of the price direct from factory (It is called "Direct-buy" haha) without serial number. He said that one of his friend purchased Versus golden chair from a factory, exactly the same item in AD but it came without serial number for 1/3 AD price. He said these factories make all the orders for their customers, well, they have mold. They can make extra units for those who want. Even the Germany designed power generator (not so sure how to explain in Eng) worth (many) millions of $ can be purchased about 1/2 to 2/3 of the AD price. Wow..... It's what he told me.

He told me all the big business in China is in a form of mafia business. During his trip in China, he said that he had equipped military vehicles ran both in front and behind his RR. Please don't ask me if he lied or not, but he is in a well-known family and very rich in my country, of course not USA or EU.

If ETA really have factory in China, it would be very easy to make extra 10,000 units of 2824, etc.. or even 100,000 of them. Coz they have all spec, detail, and machine, Why not make some extra profits into pocket??? This may not be known by the top executives of the factories, but surely known by the lower level of management.

An easy example can be cloth factories, Let say Levi as example. Levi USA use 2 unit of textile to make 1 jeans. 20,000 unit of textile are given to one factory to make 10,000 jeans but the factory is so good, it use only 1.5 to make one. So they send 10,000 jeans to Levi, and make another 2,000-3,000 jeans to sell themselves. The extra units come in the same pattern, package but no serial number. Well, who know....

Another big example, another guy I know in Pattaya, Thailand. He said that he know one person who can purchase GM cars that assembled in Thailand for less than 1/3 of the market price. The car is totally fresh from the line, no defect, no problem, totally new. He said that car manufacturers will destroy 1 car every 300 or whatever as part of random quality control. This person is in high position in GM, Thailand. He could take these cars out and purchased as parts. Well, it's likely to be the same story of "I got Mold". Anyway, He can buy only what he personally purchase.

PS. It's just what someone told me, please do not ask me if it's true or not but the story in Pattaya is true because one dealer @ Alfa AD used to offer me brand new Alfa 156 @ 3.5/10 of market price.

Edited June 8, 2008 by yim156

[letter]

"my dealer" doesn't speak English very well but is an honest guy.

When I ask him for watches with ETA 2836 he always tells me they are Chinese copies, very good copies...but copies. He is not a board dealer but someone in GZ who I've met through a friend. I've always just thought he just meant something else

Edit - this is one of the watches I asked him for recently:

http://www.trustytime88.com/index.php?main...roducts_id=1179

"Nickel Plated Swiss Eta 2824-2 Automatic movement"

He told me it was a Chinese copy ETA.

[RobbieG]

Wow, What a great topic !! It took me more than hour to finish this first page.

To RobbieG : Does ETA really have factory assembling movements and making parts in China?

I do not know how hard that the Rep maker process to get ETA movement. But I am sure that if they really want to, they could.

2 years ago, I used to talk with one person about replica items. He told me that everything that made in China, we can get it less than half of the price direct from factory (It is called "Direct-buy" haha) without serial number. He said that one of his friend purchased Versus golden chair from a factory, exactly the same item in AD but it came without serial number for 1/3 AD price. He said these factories make all the orders for their customers, well, they have mold. They can make extra units for those who want. Even the Germany designed power generator (not so sure how to explain in Eng) worth (many) millions of $ can be purchased about 1/2 to 2/3 of the AD price. Wow..... It's what he told me.

He told me all the big business in China is in a form of mafia business. During his trip in China, he said that he had equipped military vehicles ran both in front and behind his RR. Please don't ask me if he lied or not, but he is in a well-known family and very rich in my country, of course not USA or EU.

If ETA really have factory in China, it would be very easy to make extra 10,000 units of 2824, etc.. or even 100,000 of them. Coz they have all spec, detail, and machine, Why not make some extra profits into pocket??? This may not be known by the top executives of the factories, but surely known by the lower level of management.

An easy example can be cloth factories, Let say Levi as example. Levi USA use 2 unit of textile to make 1 jeans. 20,000 unit of textile are given to one factory to make 10,000 jeans but the factory is so good, it use only 1.5 to make one. So they send 10,000 jeans to Levi, and make another 2,000-3,000 jeans to sell themselves. The extra units come in the same pattern, package but no serial number. Well, who know....

Another big example, another guy I know in Pattaya, Thailand. He said that he know one person who can purchase GM cars that assembled in Thailand for less than 1/3 of the market price. The car is totally fresh from the line, no defect, no problem, totally new. He said that car manufacturers will destroy 1 car every 300 or whatever as part of random quality control. This person is in high position in GM, Thailand. He could take these cars out and purchased as parts. Well, it's likely to be the same story of "I got Mold". Anyway, He can buy only what he personally purchase.

PS. It's just what someone told me, please do not ask me if it's true or not but the story in Pattaya is true because one dealer @ Alfa AD used to offer me brand new Alfa 156 @ 3.5/10 of market price.

I don't doubt it for a minute. I'm sure what you are saying is very close to the truth. My point is that it is major and organized and pure crime of it is going on as ETA could not sell movements to rep factries without that sort of deep organization at many levels and that instead of all the layers with all the payoffs, etc. all the way to government, I'm betting the money might be better spent just creating a great version of the same movement just like they did with the A7750, and why not brand it ETA to get a little more mileage out if it and take advantage of the ETA buzz in the process...

[RobbieG]

"my dealer" doesn't speak English very well but is an honest guy.

When I ask him for watches with ETA 2836 he always tells me they are Chinese copies, very good copies...but copies. He is not a board dealer but someone in GZ who I've met through a friend. I've always just thought he just meant something else

Edit - this is one of the watches I asked him for recently:

http://www.trustytime88.com/index.php?main...roducts_id=1179

"Nickel Plated Swiss Eta 2824-2 Automatic movement"

He told me it was a Chinese copy ETA.

Good to hear at least one dealer finally admitting it. Not that any of us care right? I can't see them losing business. Of course it won't matter soon anyway as they will be using the ETA news to phase in the 2824 and 2936 movements of their own just like the A7750 is my guess. So the ETA mystery will be over soon in any event. I mean would knowing these movements were not genuine ETA's really stop anyone from buying the watch if you wanted it? And if it is a near ETA quality movement isn't the price of the watch fair anyway? I mean how cheap can it really be?

[rodwc]

The ETA's in these reps are most probably fake. With all that has transpired they just have to be at this point I'm sorry to say. But like I said, they are fantastic movements and they fit genuine parts so who cares...

A very good post indeed and thankyou.

At last I feel we are all getting somewhere, but what I ,and am sure the rest of you do want to know is.......

Just what are the physical differences between the genuine Swiss ETA and the Chinese clone movement ?

Also the ongoing marketing by our dealers, saying that these movements are GENUINE SWISS ETA.2824-2/2836-2

This boils down to deliberate deceit and lies.